Empowering Women in Chiropractic – How to Prevent Postural Decline Among Children – Drs. Buerger and Burns

Hello everybody and welcome to another amazing ChiroSecure’s Look To The Children’s Show. And again, I am beyond ecstatic about introducing you to our guest today. It’s Dr. Krista Burns. Hello there.

Hi. Thank you so much for the opportunity of being here. I’m excited to connect today.

Oh my gosh, I’m so excited to have you here for many reasons, but we’ll get to that. You guys just hang on. We have some really exciting stuff to talk about. But Dr. Krista has two doctorate degrees, Doctor of Chiropractic and Doctor of Health Administration. She is the founder of the American Posture Institute. So you can find her at the americanpostureinstitute.com. She is the author of the textbook, The Posture Principles. She has been on Fox News, on Global Woman. She’s a TEDx speaker. She’s certified in postural neurology and ergonomics and and posture correction. She is amazing, and she’s here with us today. And today just happens to be, we couldn’t time this any better. We did not plan this, but as divine universal intelligence would have it, she has an exciting announcement today. So what do you have for us, Doc?

Well, thank you so much for this opportunity. I mean, we’re talking about looking to the children, we’re talking about pediatric care. And with this divine intervention, we actually just launched today the Chiropractic Pediatrics Virtual Summit, and Dr. Monika is one of our top speakers on this summit. So we would love it if you guys would join us over there as well. We’re going to have a great conversation today, talking all about pediatrics. If you want to follow up and learn more, please join us on the Virtual Summit. It’s completely free, so you can grab your free e-ticket.

And it is… You guys don’t want to miss this. I mean, she put together, talk about an amazing cast and crew, and the quality and, I mean, you guys really need to take advantage of this. And I think you’re going to put maybe in the comments a link where they can go?

Yeah, that’d be great. And if you just follow us on Facebook, facebook.com/AmericanPostureInstitute, then we’ll have the link right there on the Facebook page as well.

Oh perfect, perfect. So you guys don’t miss out. Like at 20 plus speakers?

Yes. 20 incredible, top pediatric chiropractic experts. Again, like Dr. Monika, our leader for today’s discussion, and everybody’s talking about how to help you increase your certainty when it comes to pediatric case management assessment and, of course, treatment protocols. So it’s a can’t miss, free. E-tickets available right now. We’d love to have you join us.

Yeah, guys, do it, do it. So we’re going to talk about posture, and I have to tell you, when you get around Dr. Krista… I got to meet her last year in Atlanta, right? We were in Atlanta?


Sometimes we go so many places, we’re trying to figure out where we actually got to meet in person. But you can’t help but stand up straight when you’re around Dr. Krista. So I’m sure you get that a lot. But I was sharing a little bit with you before we went on air, and I think sometimes the universe hits you with things so you can kind of experience things that you talk about, or lecture on, or whatever, but you really, until you experience it, you might not have that same ability to communicate it. But I was sharing with you that I’ve been working a lot. I’ve been off the road for about six weeks. So I’ve been home, and I’ve been working on my new Developing Minds Program. And I love to do research, and you know how that is. The research, the writing, you’re on your computer all the time. My husband drives when we’re commuting into the office because he runs the office. So I’m on my phone, reading extra research. I’m like, oh, that’s a great article, and I’m like this all the time and everything.

And I really started to feel crappy. I mean, I started to feel really crappy. My mood, but not only, my neck pain. And as a chiropractor, I’m like, come on Monika. You know better. But I love this. It’s my passion and I was so entrenched in it. But my mood. I started to not like myself. So we’re going to dive into, and I think it was a good ta-da moment. So I’ve made a commitment that I’m not doing that anymore. And the last few days commuting into the office, I’m looking at the mountains, and the snow on the mountains, and the beauty, and it really is enlightening. So I’m glad I had that experience.

Yeah. Just a quick comment on that. They’ve actually done a research study recently. I think it was in 2017. And they had two groups of people. And the only difference between these two groups, the control group and the variable group, was one group was sitting in upright posture, the other group was in stooped, slumped forward posture, as if looking at our device. And 86% of the group that was in poor posture, had negative recall of memories of themselves. So when they were asked to recall something about themselves, 86% in the poor posture group said something negative about themselves. Whereas the group in good posture, 87% said something positive.

So exactly what you’re saying right there is what we’re seeing in the research. I mean, it’s exactly what’s happening. And so when we talk about children… I mean, you’re educated so you know that you can have better posture and it’s going to help you have a better mood and feel better, and you can look to the mountains for a great view and reconnect with nature. But what really worries me is all the children and the adolescents growing up in the digital age, who don’t have that information yet. And they really need everybody who’s listening to our conversation today to really guide them and lead them in the right direction, because proper posture impacts not only their physiology, not only their function, but also how they perceive their body image of themself and their self-perceived leadership. So we’ll dive into all of that today.

Wow, that’s huge. So spinning off that on research, that’s a huge one right there. Any other key research that you want to communicate in regards to sedentary posture and the overstimulation with technology, and [inaudible 00:06:52] regards to pediatrics?

Yeah, specifically. so one of the things that we talk about at the American Posture Institute all the time, is that in the digital age, posture’s declining at the speed of technology. We’ve never seen such a rampant decline in human posture until the onset of the digital age. Now, here’s the thing that we cannot do. We can’t just blame technology. What we need to realize is that it’s the opportunity cost. So it’s not just technology’s fault. It’s what we’re not doing while we’re on our technology. So while I’m on a computer, while I’m looking down at my device, and I’m a hunched forward posture, now what’s happening is I’m not outside playing. I’m not moving, I’m not stimulating my brain in a meaningful way.

And what they’re showing now in the research, this is from 2019, the National Institute of Health, shows, they’re doing a ten year study, and they’ve released the initial research on this study following these nine and 10-year-olds. And what’s great is, after the decade, we’ll have the full research. But initially what they’re showing is that children who use devices more than seven hours per day, in a seated, sedentary posture, are showing thinning of the brain cortex. The brain is literally shrinking because of the over use of technology in sedentary posture.

And then we look at other research studies, and we’re showing that lower academic achievement and a decrease in grade point average is associated with increased screen use. That’s from 2018. Like this research is so new because it’s happening right now. And what worries me is, if we don’t take action, we have no idea just how bad this will continue to be. Another research study, again, 2018, 15 and 16-year-old kids who have a higher frequency of engagement with digital media activities, so devices, have significantly higher odds of having symptoms of ADHD. I’ll give you two more. Mobile phone use, even for five minutes, has a significant impact on memory performance. You guys, five minutes of device use can impact my brain. That’s from 2017. And then this last one, this one like hurts my soul. It shows that more hours of screen time are associated with a lower level of well-being for children and adolescents, age two to 17. Again, this research study is from 2018.

And so we look at this, and we go, oh my gosh, it’s frightening what’s happening. But at the same time, it’s this golden age opportunity that we’ve never been presented with in the past. As chiropractors, we’ve always wanted to help pediatric patients that were non-symptomatic. Like we wanted to have a reason to educate parents about bringing in their children, even if they didn’t express symptoms. Now, with the onset of the digital age, we can’t not educate parents about bringing in their children, because of the digital age and how it’s impacting their brain function, their physiology, their body function, their structure, and their mental well-being as well.

Wow. That is a load right there. If you guys missed that, you got to replay, replay, replay, because those are amazing studies. And I believe that last one, that this came out a few weeks ago, a few months ago, on the 2019. They were talking about thinning the prefrontal cortex, correct?


Our executive functioning mode. So we know when that executive functioning isn’t in play, we’re stuck in this limbic drive, and there’s a neuro-physiological cascade that happens then. And so it’s much more than just the bad posture, like you said. We’ve got hormones that go off. We got neuro-transmitters. We’ve got a whole domino effect. So that is huge.

So I love the thing you said, perceived, the way their body perceived themselves. So I’ve been in that sensory realm for 25 plus years now, and talk about sensory modulation disorders. So we know that the way the body perceives its environment, external and its internal environment, proprioception, vestibular function, that information comes from our spinal joints and surrounding muscles. So this is huge.

So I brought a little puppet right here. I want to give you a little puppet show. So one of the things I talk about with my little fiddle farts is I talked about… because I work with a lot of kids with learning… and I’m going to get your take on this… learning and attention, and like we all see these days. I talk about the brain needs to talk to the body and the body needs to talk to the brain, so that way you can sit still. Because they don’t like to not be performing well, or behaving well. So I use sometimes a little puppet, and I put on my. I said, “The messages for your body should come straight up to your brain, and then your brain sends them straight down to your body, and then your muscles know what to do, and your brain knows what to do. But when it’s like this, where are the messages going? They’re not going to your brain. They’re going off the track.” So puppet shows can be very good. How do you talk to little fiddle farts, or parents, about this?

One of the best examples that I love to give, is when I’m talking about posture and when I’m talking about productivity and the ability to pay attention, I love to give this example, because everybody can relate to it, because everybody, at one point or another, has fallen asleep in class, myself included. I hate to admit it, but I’ve been there. So what happens when you start to get tired in class? And so we’re talking to kids, maybe an adolescent, let’s say 12 years old. What happens when you start to get tired in class? Your posture starts to go in this position, don’t you? And you start to lean forward on your desk, and you feel really tired.

Now, if the teacher doesn’t want you to be sleeping in class, and they call your name, and you don’t want to get caught sleeping, what’s the first thing that you do? You instantly sit up straight. Why do we do this inherently? We naturally engage our posture system to wake up our brain. This is a natural response that we’ve always had, whether we were 12 years old falling asleep in class, or up through graduate chiropractic school. We instantly sit up straight. Why is this? The reason being is because we’ve all heard of the reticular activating system. The reticular activating system tells us what to pay attention to. So for example, if I say red car, you start noticing more red cars. If you want a red car for Christmas, you start noticing more red cars on the road. That’s the reticular activating system.

What people forget to tell us about the reticular activating system, is we also have a descending pathway. So reticular activating is ascending, up to the brain, for paying attention, but we also have the descending reticular spinal, reticular spinal, reticular spinal. It goes to the spine. And so when we engage our posture system, that’s the reticulospinal tract, when we engage the posture system, we sit up straight and now we feel more engaged. And so our ability to pay attention is directly impacted by the postural design and the physical structure of our body. It’s no wonder that when I’m hunched over my device in this hunched forward posture, that I go into a tech trance, a computer coma.

Research has shown that people, when they’re asked how much time they spend on devices, we naturally under-report ourself, our habits, by 50%. Meaning that you may have spent five hours on your device, but you are so zoned out, because you’re in this slumped forward posture and tuned into artificial stimulation coming from a device, that we under-report how much time we’re using devices by 50%. And not even because we’re trying to lie about it. Just because we go into a brain fog, a tech trance, a computer coma, and our brains are not paying attention to what’s going on. However, if we want to engage with the world, like we’re designed to do as human beings, we sit up straight, we look, we engage our visual system in the world around us, and now suddenly we have more productive posture.

Wow. Wow. That’s incredible information, Doc. You’re amazing. So we know that it also changes neurotransmitters, especially dopamine, and you can get that dopamine dysregulation. Give us a little tidbit about this digital dementia that we hear about these days. And particularly, do you have any association more with adolescents? Or what have we got there?

So what’s happening with digital dementia is when I’m seated in a sedentary posture and when I’m watching a video… for example, imagine a YouTube video… the back of my brain is being overstimulated. Why the back of the brain? Because incoming visual signals are interpreted by your occipital lobe in the back of your brain. So that’s bombarded with incoming visual stimulation from a video. Now, here’s what’s underactive. Your frontal lobe, because you’re not thinking, you’re not moving. Your parietal lobe is underactive because you’re not experiencing real sensation from the world, such as moving your joints, such as feeling natural sensations from nature. So that’s all inhibited. And then your cerebellum, you’re not doing precise movements. So your cerebellum is underactive. Your vestibular system, your flexor dominant, instead of being in upright extension, completely inhibited. Your visual system. You’re only looking right here instead of moving your eyes in orbit to scan the environment.

And so we see a sensory disassociation where the back part of the brain is overactive but the rest of your brain is underactive. And what this is resulting in is not only symptoms of brain fog but also poor memory recall. If you look on Alzheimers.org, if you look at the Alzheimer’s Association, how they define dementia is that dementia is not a disease. Dementia is a collection of symptoms associated with an inability of focusing, poor memory recall, and being forgetful in a way that impacts your quality of life. Well, I would say that when we put down our devices after five hours of being on them and we say, “Oh, I’ve been on my device for a couple hours.” What were you looking at? You’re like, “I don’t even remember.”

So we have outsourced our brain, we are demonstrating signs and symptoms associated with dementia, and it is impacting cognition. And here’s what’s really frightening, Dr. Monika, that we have to bring up. I just, last week, was in Malaysia speaking at the World Congress of Falls and Postural Stability, and they were all talking about this with dementia, how it’s impacting falls and lower cognition, when you have a stooped forward posture. What terrifies me is they were talking about that for geriatric patients. It is shown over and over again in the literature that if you have this posture, you have a decline in cognition. However, that was for geriatric patients in previous generations. Now we’re watching a whole new generation addicted to their devices in this posture, at an early age. We’re seeing an increase in ADHD, an increase in postural instability, an increase in falls, and an increase in what I call digital dementia. And of course, that’s impacting our cognition, our ability to pay attention, and have natural thought processes associated with better learning and development.

So here’s the cool thing. There’s not a pill for digital dementia, right? There’s not a pill for better posture. We love this opportunity. That’s like the best news we’ve ever heard. So we recognize that it could be daunting, realizing what’s going on in the digital age, but at the same time, this is a golden opportunity because we can position ourselves as the first line of defense against it, and help these children have natural stimulation that they need to their bodies and their posture systems to prevent digital dementia, to prevent postural decline, to prevent how this is then showing up later as developmental disorders. So we’ve got to work together to be the first line of defense against this.

Absolutely. And with that said, there’s a label now, diagnosis, called Developmental Coordination Disorder. Essentially what it is, is these children literally are falling out of chairs at school. They can’t manage stairs, maneuver stairs. They don’t have good core, their vestibular and proprioceptive systems. And certainly, what causes what. But you are 1,000,000% correct. We need to be on the forefront of this disaster that’s about to hit. Do you have some signs, a few signs of technology fatigue? What would you look for, especially in the little fiddle farts or the adolescents?

This is what I’m always telling parents to watch for, is three signs of tech fatigue. So the three signs of tech fatigue, number one is tech neck posture. Everybody knows what that is, where you’re looking down at your device, your ears are in front of your shoulders. You have a C-shaped spinal curvature, so a postural hyperkyphosis. You have [inaudible 00:18:40] shoulders and into a chest drop. So if you see tech neck posture, that’s sign number one. Sign number two is spending more than two hours per day on devices for recreational use. I very much understand that children these days are on devices more so for doing reports, for doing their homework. When they’re using their brains on technology, I’m okay with that. But when it’s more than two hours per day for recreational use, just mindless scanning, that’s where it becomes a problem.

And then number three is behavioral changes directly associated with devices. Let me give you an example here. So if ourselves, like if I left my phone home tomorrow, how would I feel? Would I feel like an addict going through withdrawals because I don’t have my phone that day? If we do, that’s a behavioral change associated with device use. So if you ask a child to put down their device or their video game and come to the dinner table, do they act out? Do they act strange? Are they literally shaking physiologically because they don’t have their device with them for a short period of time? So if you see a behavioral change directly associated with device use, then this is alarming to us. Those three signs, again, are tech neck posture, more than two hours per day on devices for recreational use, and behavior changes associated with device use.

Oh, great pearls. Great pearls. Everybody write those down. Have those ready for your… Put it on a handout. Do something.

And parents get that. Like parents can take that as homework. And then what’s cool about that is you say, “You let me know what you find when you check for these signs of tech fatigue.” Guess what happens? Mom comes back and goes, “That’s my kid.” And then it’s a very natural referral at that point, because now mom goes, “I need to take action to prevent this.” And of course, we understand that working with pediatric patients is all about prevention. It’s all about helping them early on, so they can have these natural habits, that helps lead to better natural healthcare.

Absolutely. And it’s all about balance. When their brain is expecting X amount of stimulation, [inaudible 00:20:34] information coming in… So let’s take, on the devices, they’re getting X amount, a higher drive of visual, a lower drive of vestibular and proprioceptive. There’s this mismatch. There’s these gaps in this information. And that is what we see expressed as inability to pay attention or behavioral issues. And their neuro expression is telling you, okay, what gaps might be going on. So this is huge. This is critical. This is us. This is cutting-edge us, chiropractic. So as chiropractors, with that said, because you have amazing pearl bombs, we could be here for hours, but I know you’ve got a crazy schedule, I get everybody’s got a crazy schedule, but as chiropractors, what are some pearls that we can do to be on the cutting edge, to help prevent some of these postural distortions that we’re seeing?

So number one is talking to parents and pediatric patients, specifically about device use. We have to bring that to a minimum. Number two is stimulating, and you mentioned it, the vestibular system. So the vestibular system controls balance and equilibrium, but also upright postural extension. So what happens when I’m flexor dominant? When I go into a postural hyperkyphosis with tech neck, I go forward with gravity. Gravity is pressing me down and I can’t resist it. And so I go into flexor dominance. Flexor dominance is a more primitive posture. We need to spend our life in upright extension.

Now what happens with pediatric patients is you tell them to sit up straight, and they’re like, “No problem, Doc. I can do this.” And they sit up straight for 40 seconds. You turn and walk to the door and back, and you come back and they’re back in this posture. They don’t have bony abnormalities of their spine, preventing them from having upright posture. What they have is lack of stimulation, on a consistent basis, to their vestibular system that brings them into upright posture, upright postural extension.

And so in addition to the incredible adjustments that you guys are doing already to help transform the lives of children, what I want you to do is some vestibular activities as well. Number one is one leg balance. Every child should be able to stand on one leg and balance for 30 seconds in proper posture. Number two is a Superman extension. So the patient’s lying face down. And if your patients are lying face down, like waiting for you to walk into the room, this is a great time to have them go into extension. So they’re lying face down and they lift their upper body up into that Superman position and they hold, and they’re engaging those paraspinal musculature into extension. So we’re going into upright extension. So balance to stimulate that part of the vestibular system, and then upright extension.

And then number three is posture breaks. So for every hour that a child is sitting in class or on technology, they need to do a 30 second posture break. Let’s perform it together. You just bring your arms out to the side, you drop your head back and press your chest forward. What this is doing is this is reversing the press of gravity. So where gravity makes us flexor dominant, C-shaped spinal curvature, we resist that and go into [inaudible 00:23:28] postural extension. Two things will happen afterwards. The child feels stretched out. They’re like, “Oh, I feel better. I can sit up straight.” But also, in addition to that, they can concentrate better now too, because we’ve just engaged that posture system. So when they go back to their school work, they’re more engaged.

And then also sitting on an instable surface. This, I cannot recommend enough. I know that children most likely cannot bring exercise balls with them to the classroom, because it could be considered disruptive. But if you give them a posture cushion to bring and put on their seat, this is such a good vestibular activation because it’s instable. So because it’s instable, anytime I move my body in relation to gravity, it activates my vestibular system to bring me back to center. So now I’m moving more, which is more proprioception. I’m actually engaging my core musculature, which is good strength and stability. But in addition to that, I’m stimulating the vestibular system every time my body position changes in relation to gravity. So now I’m activating my brain to balance my body upright. Whereas if not, I’m just sitting in a chair, in like the worst posture ever, sitting in class. So those are some activities that are super easy to implement with what you’re already doing, which is going to help transform the lives of these children.

Wow. Wow. Wow. Those are pearl, pearl bombs. And I cannot stress this enough to our audience. I’ve been accused of having a love affair with the [inaudible 00:24:45] and the vestibular systems. But the vestibular system is so profound. It has a direct correlation with anxiety, with depression, with scoliosis. I mean, with all these [inaudible 00:24:55] it really is. So those are absolutely must-haves. And a couple of things I’ve done, I know you said about the yoga physio balls. I get them on Amazon, and I adopt classrooms around my community, and I go [inaudible 00:25:12], because teachers [inaudible 00:25:14]. So these are great ways for us to get this information out there, be a part of a community, contribute to our community, and also let them know where we are and to find us if they want to come consult or whatever.

So Dr. Krista, I swear, we could be here for hours. We’ve got to do a round two one day.

I’d love to.

But from the bottom of my heart, that is such profound information, and I can’t thank you enough for being here. And I hope you have the happiest of holidays.

Thank you so much for the opportunity.

And again, you’re going to put the link in the comments, or they can just follow you at the American Posture Institute on Facebook.

Yeah, facebook.com/AmericanPostureInstitute. The link will be there. Plus, I’m very happy to post it in the comments, because we’re just getting started with this information. I really want you to hear Dr. Monika’s presentation on the Virtual Summit as well.

We talked a little bit about neuroplastic development, and that was a blast. Thank you for having me on that.

Of course.

It is a summit that you guys don’t want to miss, because it has got incredible amount of information, so make sure you jump on it. Today’s the first day launch, right?

Yes, exactly.

Today’s the first [inaudible 00:26:26]. And you can also find that link on the Intersect4Life. You’ll find it out there. Listen, get in there and let’s change some lives together. So again, Doc, have a incredible holiday season. Thank you for joining us from Puerto Rico. We will be meeting again soon.

And from all of us at Look To The Children’s Show and ChiroSecure, we want to wish you the happiest of holidays and all the most success in 2020. I’ll be back. You’ll have your regular host the first Thursday, Erik Kowalke. And as a little twist of a tidbit, I will be interviewing him on my show the third Thursday of January. So again, happiest of holidays, and thank you for sharing your information, again, Dr. Krista, and for all of you out there, make sure you share this information to your colleagues and your communities.

Yes, to the whole ChiroSecure.

Today’s pediatric show. Look To The Children, was brought to you by ChiroSecure, and the award-winning book series, I AM a Lovable ME. Make sure you join us next week, right here at the same time. See you next week.

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Empowering Women Chiropractic – Vagal Tone & Neurobiology – Drs. Buerger & Haas

Now, here’s today’s host, Dr. Monika Buerger.

Hello everybody. Welcome to ChiroSecure’s “Look to the Children Show.” I’m your host for today, Dr. Monika Buerger, and I am beyond excited once again to have an amazing, amazing guest. I was so pumped for today. It’s unbelievable. I have the amazing Dr. Amy Haas with us. I have secretly deemed her, the Chiro Nerd Mama.

I love it. I love it.

Thank you for being here. Let me tell the audience about…


…I was a little late on the trigger reading through your bio and stuff, so I was doing that on the way to the office today and I was like, “Oh my gosh. Okay. She’s got a long list of amazing achievements. She’s got a master’s and a PhD in biochemistry, she’s done postgraduate work at Harvard and she had a position there [inaudible 00:01:50] enzymology, which I was like, “Oh, I got to talk to this woman.” We’ll I am going to talk to this woman, I am talking to this woman”, where she coincidentally was in the same building and where she met her chiropractic introduction. Is that correct?


And that was Dr. Steven…

Branson. And there are no coincidence’s in this universe.

No, that’s crazy. She is… likes to put the pieces of puzzle together. So she’s known, we’re going to talk about something she’s known for coming up here in a minute, but her specialty is digging in, finding out the mystery pieces, looking at how we as chiropractors, why we have seen these profound changes all these years and what are the, why can that be happening. She loves to study something that I’ve had a relationship. I joke around that I have a love affair with the vagus nerve, the vestibular system and others. And in fact, years ago I got, I started talking about the vagus nerve about 15 years ago and everybody said, “Oh, that Buerger she just loves to talk about the vagus nerve.” And so now I get to nerd out with my, my Chiro nerd friend here. Anyway, so Dr. [inaudible 00:03:10] she tell you that the microbiome, neuroendocrinology, vagus nerve, heart rate variability. How does that fit into the paradigm of chiropractic? Why do we see it important in chiropractic? She’s a private practice and by the way, happy ninth birthday to your practice.

Thank you.

Had a recent birthday. She has teamed up with Dr. Bruce Steinberg and his lovely bride in something that I’ve got to to check into Chironerds.com. Is that right?

Yep. It’s still in process.

Okay, so it’s in the process so she could maybe elaborate on that a little bit about where she is in the process with that. But anyway, without further ado to the world, Dr, Amy Haas, thank you for being here.

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Did I get your last name right?

Yes. Thank you.

Okay, all right. German?


So, see, I knew we have to be sisters from another mother from another lifetime at some point in time.

There you go. It’s funny three years ago today I was actually in Germany.

Oh awesome. Yes.

It’s my first first trip over there.

Yes. Beautiful country, right?

Yes. Very.

Well thank you for hanging out. I was… When I scored you on the show, I was like big win, big win.

I’m super honored to be here. I’ve been looking forward to this.

So you are known for, I guess with a little expression of “We know”, “What we know”. What is it that you know? What’s your expression, I didn’t get that one right. It’s all connected. Even when…

It’s all connected…

Go on.

“It’s all connected in some way, some of which we know and some of what you don’t know”, did I get that right?

Yes. You bet you.

All right, so tell the world what you mean by that.

You can think of the body as individual parts or you can put it together like a puzzle and think of it as the sum of its parts and the sum of its parts is much more intricate and elaborate than each of the parts independently. And they’re all, the parts of the body are connected in ways. Some we know, some we don’t know. We’re finding new science coming forth about number of different topics. There is a paper that was just discussed last week about the possibility that a stress on bone in mice instigates the adrenal stress response, which was fascinating. Just a couple of years ago, we had the discovery of the CNS lymphatic system and the glymphatic system, and all of a sudden it turns out the appendix actually has a function in the body.

Go figure.


I know, right? So all of these different discoveries about human physiology are still happening and we don’t truly understand all of the puzzle pieces of the human body just yet. I’m not sure we will in our lifetimes. And that’s okay. That’s a beautiful puzzle just to kind of observe and say, not can we control it, but how can we empower it?

Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. Because it’s all network, right? It’s all this networking that happens and I have a feeling you’re a lot like me. You find one piece and then it leads you to a rabbit hole, which now it’s four in the morning and you’re like, okay, I’ve got 20 papers open and I just opened up this huge rabbit hole.

We definitely are soul sisters. Oh yeah.

But I have to ask you a question because, again forgive me, I just got to read this on the way to the office today. You talk about there was a paper plopped on your desk like 10 years ago or something when you, was that when you were at Harvard in regards to the, I call the vagus nerve, the big bad Voodoo Daddy.

That’s a good title. I like that. That’s a really good one.

For those out there…

[inaudible 00:07:09]

I think it said it was… Anyway. Was that the one by Kevin Tracey?

I can find out. Hang on.


Oh, there you go. So tell the world the, the vagus nerve, I call him the big bad Voodoo Daddy because he really, he’s, he is your immune system, I, he is your, vagal tone supports your immune system. He controls a whole [inaudible 00:07:34] anti-inflammatory pathway guys.

Absolutely. Right.

Right. He controls your digestion. He controls your stomach acid balance, your bile, your heart rate. I mean, so this real, this he is really the King of Kahunas.

Can you read that or is it all fuzzy?

I can sort of.

Okay, the sympathetic nerve and integrative interface between two super systems, the brain and the immune system. So interestingly, looking back on this title, the actual problem that I have at the title is that they’re not two separate super systems, they’re one super system, but they have different components that aren’t even mentioned here. This was, oh, this was 19 years ago. This is pharmacology reviews in 2000 and I honestly don’t remember when this landed on my desk, but I know it made me go, wow, I need to look at that and they’re… Rabbit hole.

That is the huge rabbit hole. I remember doing the work for the second edition of the chiropractic pediatric textbook. Anyway, long story and going down this rabbit hole and I then I stumbled about Kevin Tracey’s paper in 1998 and where he saw that the immune system is really modulated by vagal tone and so as chiro… Can we [inaudible 00:08:54] on that a little bit as chiropractors? Now you have done, you did a a study in, or a clinical trial, correct?

It was not a clinical trial. It was just a retrospective case series. I was noticing, I was playing with HRV because I’m a nerd, I play with things and by experimental systems I do not experiment on my patients. I observe them. There’s a difference…

There’s a difference.

…in terms of, yes, in terms of a, what’s that thing you’re supposed to get a some sort of approval to do that. But I’m a born lab rat. I’m not used to working with humans. I’m used to working with test tubes, so this whole working with human subjects is a whole different ball of wax to me. So, I observe my patients and I notice if there’s a trend that a lot of people are showing up at the same finding or the same improvement. And I was noticing that many of my patients would start with a lower heart rate variability as measured by standard deviation of end to end interval and over time that would progressively improve because we know it’s not one data point that is important to understand the direction of health.

You can’t make a trajectory off of one data point. You need at least three data points to make any kind of align and you really want more than that. So I started tracing the heart rate variability in patients pretty frequently just to see what was happening. And it turned out there was a really beautiful commonality between many of the people who were having their subluxations corrected with just conservative care, is their heart rate variability was improving almost linearly and then plateauing and staying there. So I found that very interesting and that’s what the paper’s about.

Oh, beautiful. Where can people dig into that paper?

Now that’s an interesting question. It’s published in the Chiropractic Journal of Australia and I think, you know, there’s some political stuff going on with that journal. So to actually find the article is a bit challenging at this point. So I’m going to recommend that people go to a different resource. It’s Chiro.org, it’s Frank Painter’s site. He does such a fantastic job of looking for different research and putting it into a form that chiropractors can access easily. And so if you search a Chiro.org and heart rate variability, you’ll find a link to the full paper.

Fabulous. Thank you for that. Thank you. And they thank you for doing that. That work.

So, I had sent Alan a few talking points and so forth and he’s like, okay, maybe not everybody out there listening is as nerdy as you and I. So can we…


Could you break down a little bit, let’s give the audience some simple bullet points about heart rate variability, because we want it high not low. So people understand that you want a high heart rate variability, that means you’re adapting better to your stress.


What else do you want to tell them? Just some bullet points for people that might not have heard of this kind of lingo before, but they’re like, that’s intriguing.

So, the first step is to distinguish heart rate versus heart rate variability. Heart rate is 60 beats per minute. Heart rate variability is, do you have beats that are 0.61 milliseconds, 0.62, 0.59, they should be a little bit different, and the distance between adjacent heartbeats. So if you take a five minute sampling of your heart rhythm, your instantaneous heart rhythm, you should be able to use just a simple mathematical equation to standard deviation, to give you an idea of how variable that heart rhythm is. And it turns out that I’m in about, oh, I don’t know, 30,000 [inaudible 00:12:43] references that the variability in your instantaneous heart rate is a reflection of how well your body is perceiving it’s environment, internal and external. Integrating that information and executing a timely, an appropriate adaptive response. Now those were a bunch of words, but what that really means is the safety pin cycle.

So what we’re looking, sorry, go on.

No, go…, well what I want to break down for a lot of people out there that know that I talk a lot about the sensory motor loop and adapting to our external, internal environment. So our external environment are those five FARs senses, sight, smell, sound, so on and so forth. But to our audience’s internal [inaudible 00:13:32] senses, which I believe is, are so profoundly modulated with chiropractic care, is that a [inaudible 00:13:40] proprioceptive that interoceptive, so I just want to throw that in there so we can tie that together for those guys out there. Interoceptive system or neural visceral system is modulated by the vagus nerve, by vagal tone. So this…

Big time.

So this is how we’re linking everything together for you all. So when Amy was talking about adapting to what we perceive, remember it’s adapting to those senses that those senses. So I just want to interject that. So we tie this all together for them.

Perfect. It… One of the paradigms that I use with my patients is your body will only adapt to what it sees. And I’m using the word see in a more general sense, not specifically see, but perceives. If your body does not accurately perceive anything, whether it’s your balance, whether it’s your blood pressure, if your body does not perceive that, it will not execute an appropriate adaptive response to change because of that. So both ends of those loop are really important. And the most important thing is that thing in the middle, the integration place where I think that’s the brain or something.

Something like that.

Yes. Something like that.


Yes, exactly. And so now we also know that there’s… We have these brain regions that [inaudible 00:14:59] it’s like a marriage or relationship, they have to have the chemistry between them and then the constant communication and that communication needs to be, it can’t be one person in the relationship has more say so, more power of a communicator, they have to be communicating, all those regions have to be communicating equally, so that they can perceive their world and respond appropriately in a motor function. So, yes. We could just be here forever right.

I think so. Oh yes. This is awesome.

So, how would we tie this together with the vertebral subluxation with finding, detecting, correcting vertebral subluxations, and what does that have to do with a vagal tone?

I’m going to answer that in a way you don’t expect. So I, do you know Dr. John Chung? He’s in Florida.

Yes, yes, yes. Love him.

Okay. So me too. He and I actually were overlapping at [inaudible 00:15:59] University. He’s part of my brain trust. So basically when John says something, I listen and just today he was talking about a conversation he had with a patient. He posted this on Facebook, that it was a patient returning to care and she wanted to have her vertebral subluxations, her upper cervical subluxation addressed and adjusted and this patient wanted, John said, I think he had a screen show on his overhead computer, something like that. And she said, “Oh, that’s interesting. I wonder what’ll happen when we adjust me.”

So he took a baseline of heart rate variability for this returning patient, did a specific analysis and a specific chiropractic adjustment, and you know John, it’s going to be very specific, it’s [inaudible 00:16:45] and measure the change in heart rate variability afterwards. And there was a very strong trend towards positive improvement. That was instantaneously, it was, there you go for a readout. I mean, and when you look at that in terms of what is heart rate variability, it is perception of the body, integration of information and execution of a response. When that improves, that means that the body is literally adopting better, and when the body is adapting better you can logically conclude that the body will be healthier because lower adaptation is kind of bad.

And that leads to, let’s kind of lay this out by the way John, if you’re listening to this, you’re on my hit list to be on the show. You didn’t know that but…


…you are now, I’ve got my hit list. So anyway, and for the audience out there, this leads to whole downstream neurophysiological consequences because when we’re not adapting appropriately we… We’re stuck in that HPA axis cranking, cortisols kicking, initially cortisol’s anti-inflammatory then it switches to the pro-inflammatory, but there’s a whole cascade of things that happen. So we just want to tie that in there for you out there listening that this is a big deal. This is…

Big time.

…as well as mental health and we know that one in five kiddos in this country is diagnosed with a mental health issue. So I kind of want to transition there if we can for a minute doc. So, okay, let’s break this down. Research… If I were to say, is there substantial research for us as chiropractors to say, I mean we, we know what we see in our offices, we know that we see these responses. But as far as research, if I were to step in a court of law or whatever, [inaudible 00:18:44] Is there research out there to says we definitely affect the vagus nerve?

Whew. Directly or indirectly?

Let’s go with directly first.

I don’t think there’s adequate research yet. I think it will be very straightforward for us to do there are great model systems to follow and I think it is eminently accomplish, and I think that is something that should be on the high priority list for chiropractic research. I actually think it honestly, it’s like shooting ducks in a barrel.


You know, we already know the answer. It’s a matter of how to frame it.

Absolutely. And because that’s always been one of my crazy missions is to, because in your bio, you, I know you’ve done a lot of this work. We have the medical arena looking at vagal nerve stimulators and different modes to stimulate vagal tone and I feel, and I know you’re right there too, I can feel it. We should be on the forefront of being able to tell that to the world and lead that chase and how chiropractic can really modulate vagal tone.

Without question.

Yes, we have all these other entities doing it, you know, and we can innately, we have the power to innately modulate vagal tone and I think, I would just love to see that be the one of the forefronts of where we go.

I would love that and there’s a secondary reason for that. I was thinking about the nature of transcutaneous vagal stem that’s being put forth in the medical device arena these days and you can put an input into the vagus nerve through the trachea’s and you can modulate vagal tone that way and you can measure it. The systems exist to measure what we want to see. But here’s a question for you.

If you decrease sympathetic over activation by sensory input to the vagus nerve, therefore vagus tone is more prevalent, but you have not actually effected parasympathetic. If you’re decreasing sympathetic tone, but, and also you’re not addressing the subluxation, you’re still modulating the system from the outside in. You’re tuning a guitar string the way you think it should be, but that may not actually produce the most harmonious chords.

That’s a beautiful point. Beautiful. Absolutely.

And that’s where we fit, that’s where we have this profound ability at least. Yes, absolutely. So when we talk about little fiddle farts, the little ones, so we know that there’s these critical windows of development. I call it the first thousand days. That’s fetal development, the first two years of life and then the autonomic nervous system. So these critical windows things, there are things we, the nervous system brain expects to happen. They, they need to happen in that time and there’s things that shouldn’t happen. And we know that the autonomic regulation, that vagal tone, heart rate variability comes on board the end of the second try and, and the third try during fetal development. So we need mama to be imbalance and adaptable as best as possible. Where do you see these little fiddle farts fitting into this picture?

Couple of different ways. One is prenatally her mama. Absolutely. And you just reminded me of a friend of mine had a car accident the other day and she’s five months pregnant, so that has some pretty serious implications for making sure that she gets that stress response down for sure. So, prenatally the stress on the mama will be reflected as stress on the baby and that’s literally neurological programming. That’s hard wiring.


That’s hard to fight.


You can do it. It’s hard to fight. And then early on in childhood development, if children are subjected to ACE’s, adverse childhood events, again that will prime their nervous system to have a trigger happy stress response, and that skews the autonomic nervous system towards “fight or flight”, or as compared to “rest and relaxation”. Or if we were talking about Polyvagal theory, it skews the response of the nervous system towards “fight or flight” or “freeze”. And when that happens, you’re setting off an entire endocrine hormone cascade, and we all know that the hormone cascade of stress impacts human health. So if there’s anything that could help to redirect the balance of the autonomic nervous system after these adverse childhood events, then it would be expected to really help the longterm health prognosis of these kids who are having these events.

Absolutely. And in that study they found that the life expectancy of those that, that had the high ACEs score, the average child experiences, their life expectancies to be down by about 20 years.

And there was a strong correlation…

Strong, strong correlation. Just last week I received a recent research paper on positive childhood experiences that will negate, they played off of it off the ACEs study, and that positive childhood experiences will help minimize the expense, the responses of the adverse.

Of course.

So, of course, so think about if we have these little fiddle farts that have this dis-regulation and these adverse experiences and we get into their lives and we can create a positive environment, meaning a positive perception of their environment and be a part of being able to negate the adverse offense, events. That is, I just…

Beyond profound.

Right. And we know that these… This getting, I call it getting stuck in limbic lock and load mode, it shuts down the frontal lobe and then, but this is so much tied to not just physical consequences, but mental health as well, and I really want to hit home to the audience about what we do as chiropractors has a profound effect across the boards in regards to physical and mental health. So anything you want to add to that?

Vagus, vagus, vagus and vagus, but also maybe vagus and possibly vagus.

You think so? Because what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Shouldn’t stay there. Shouldn’t stay there. Oh, I, dang it. I left my iPad in the sun. It was going to give you a title to a paper. But anyways, the neuro, [inaudible 00:25:36] neurovisceral integration model is a proposed hypothesis, top-down appraisal of how heart rate variability reflects the handling of stress in life, as measured by mental health concerns, depression, anxiety, PTSD in particular. And these studies have shown that higher heart rate variability, not too high, because that’s instability. It’s kind of like blood pressure, you want it not too low, not too high. Right in the Goldilocks zone. So higher heart rate variability was, lower heart rate variability was predictive of someone developing PTSD… (Silence) … suppose predictive of is an interesting word to be able to use in a research study.


So heart rate variability as modulated by the vagus nerve and really HRV is a readout.


So we’re looking at vagus function predicting whether someone will end up with a mental health disorder.

And that’s huge. I mean it’s so huge. And again we take it back to our little fiddle farts because this is more of a [inaudible 00:26:46]. But if we start out with this little guy, this little fiddle fart with colloquy, not sleeping, not pooping, right there because that is, so much all the whole GI system’s massively by vagal tone. We’re really getting an outward appearance. I say there a person’s neurological expression, the way they, their outward expression is giving you a window into their neurological integrity. So the [inaudible 00:27:14], non poopy, non sleeping babies after mom has to sit and bounce with them the whole time or whatever. They’re telling us that, “Hey, I’m not being able to adapt to this, this stress that I’m under.”

Absolutely. Yep.

So okay, I can have you here for hours and Alan’s probably like, okay, you guys stop. What is, what is one last, I know you’ve got a million but one last pearl that you want to leave the world with. Not that you’re leaving the world, but leave this audience with?

The distinction between traditional approach to management of the human body versus the above, down, inside out perspective, recognizing that the system truly is connected in ways that we don’t understand or fully appreciate yet, that sometimes it’s better to remove anything that is obstructing the system from rebalancing itself, than to try to fiddle with the system from the outside in, not knowing what’s going to happen. And really that’s what we’re doing with the chiropractic adjustment is we are removing obstructions that are preventing the vagus nerve from doing what it does best, which is modulating and… modulating the body and keeping everything in an active dynamic equilibrium.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Now I hope everybody can listen. Listen to that segment, repeat, rewrite, repeat and be able to articulate that to the world. Because that was beautiful.

Thank you.

So I guess we better wrap it up before we get that, the red flag, but thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your, I mean, your beauty, your talent and your time with all of us out there in Chiro land. And I look forward to nerding out with you more and you, so Chironerd.com, and then your practice is, your practice website or where they can find your brilliant [inaudible 00:29:19]

Pathoflifechiro.com, I named my practice after a [inaudible 00:29:25], “Two paths diverged in the wood and I took the one less traveled”, and it has made all the difference, so I went from the traditional academic, to where I am right now and I love what I do. I’m so honored and thankful to do what it is that I can people’s lives and to be able to share how these neurons fire and create ideas and stuff with other people who can make use of them.

Well that’s amazing. And I, that’s one of my favorite sayings. So I think we were sisters from another, from another life, from something else, but.

I’m getting that totally.

Again, hey doc, thank you so much and I look forward to your, what you’re coming out with and keep us in the loop. We’ll have…

[crosstalk 00:30:10]

We’ll have to do a round two.

I’d love that. And at some point you and I are going to have to sit down and have coffee and just like nerd out until all of our brains are fried.

Sounds like a plan. Hey God bless you. Thank you for everything you do for chiropractic and just thanks for being you and I appreciate your time.

And thank you for having me and thank you for everything you do for chiropractic.

You’re amazing.

Well, we’re all in this together. My mantra now is “Alone we can make a difference, but together we can make change” and that’s where we need to go.

Love it.

So thank you all out there for tuning in. Make sure that you join Dr. Eric Glocky, the first Thursday of every month. He has an amazing [inaudible 00:30:54] show, and again, Chiro Secure, thank you so much from the bottom of our chiropractic hearts for allowing us to bring this information to the masses and to help serve more children and save more children. So until next month, I will see you the third Thursday of next month.


Today’s pediatric show “Look to the Children” was brought to you by ChiroSecure and the award winning book series “I am a lovable me”. Make sure you join us next week, right here at the same time. See you next week.

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Empowering Women Chiropractic – Create Your Own Baby Boom in Your Practice

Welcome to ChiroSecure’s Empowering Women in Chiropractic, the Facebook Live show for successful women by successful women, proving once again, women make it happen. Join us each week as we bring you the best in business growth, practice management, social media marketing, networking, leadership, and lots more. If it’s about women in practice and business, you’ll hear it here.

Now join today’s host Dr. Nathalie Beauchamp as she talks impact exposure and systems. And now here is Dr. Nathalie.

Hello everyone and welcome to today’s show of Empowering Women in Chiropractic. First of all, I’d like to thank ChiroSecure for bringing this show together because I know that every time that I interview someone, I learn about so many things and I think it’s just so important that we share our passion and our expertise.

So, for today’s show, I have Dr. Jenna Davis, and we titled the name of the show, I have to read here, How to Create Your Own Baby Boom in Your Practice. So welcome Jenna to the show.

Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here.

Great. So Jenna, you have to tell us a little bit more about this baby boom because I know it’s also the name of your website. You are a chiropractor, and if you don’t mind telling us a little bit more about how you got into chiropractic and segue in to why you have focused so much of helping children in your practice.

For sure. It’s a bit of a long, slow story of how I got into chiropractic. I always knew I wanted to go into health care of some sort or helping people of some sort. I was a gymnast when I was younger, tried lots of different things. My body did not like the wear and tear gymnastics. And when I was very young, I went and saw a chiropractor just for wellness with my parents. But then over time, that just stopped. And then I was in high school, I had stopped gymnastics due to injuries but I was in still high school gymnastics and I was in, I was the lead in the high school play. And my back would go out for about a week at a time, couple of times a year. And it did while the play was going on. And so, my director said, you have to go see my chiropractor, like this is not okay.

I tried pretty much every other modality out there and it just didn’t hold. And once I started seeing the chiropractor, that we’ll just say reignited my passion for what I didn’t know. And then investigated more, stayed under chiropractic care, went to university. Was still not 100% sure if it was chiropractic or medical of some sort and then decided, no, I think I want to be a chiropractor because I liked the lifestyle. I loved the aspect that I’m actually able to look at the whole person and general wellness. And I had more control over my life.

So I actually, for one of my summer jobs, I worked for the chiropractor that was my chiropractor in high school. So I really saw the business side and understood is this something I truly want to do? And then I decided this is what I want to do and the rest is I guess history.

History [inaudible 00:04:30] You’re in Oakville, Ontario, right?

I am.

So, how did you start, because, you know, the goal I think with this is we have segment on a marketing and so forth, but tell us more about when you started practice, when did you realize you wanted to have more kids into your practice and then what did you do to further your education? Because, you know, most chiropractors I would think see children, but we’d probably go from a range of seeing the occasional children to entire family and that I know some chiropractors are focusing a lot more on adjusting kids. So what was the progression?

Well, I ended up having, I had my daughter at the very end of chiropractic school. So, innately, that was the stage of life I was at. So, there was less fear around touching babies but I wouldn’t necessarily say I had great experience in caring for babies and children. But that was sort of my introduction in recognizing also and seeing the benefit of having my daughter under regular care for me. And I started into practice right away and realized there was one, a love I had for caring for children, but then also, really, truly seeing the issues that we have as adults and being able to trace them back to childhood injuries or childhood illnesses or even all the way back to birth.

And so, that allowed me to think, okay, if we could put the, I guess the cart before the horse and start and looking at prevention rather than putting out the fires, a huge impact could happen. As far as from an education standpoint, I’m very big on continuing education and ensuring that I maintain my level of education. So, I’ve taken lots of different courses. I did do most of the ICPA training. I didn’t do all of it because I kept having babies and then having to miss some the classes and just time went on. But I’ve been lucky enough to also speak around the world on many stages.

And the beautiful thing about that is I get exposed to so many brilliant minds in our fields and in other fields where I can actually take a lot more information from them. There’s some brilliant speakers that I saw in Australia and in the UK and in the United States and in Canada. And then I’ve been able to pull from all of those and really figure out what fits for my practice.

And that I think is a big, yeah, the biggest question I get is what course should I take. Should I take this kind of craniosacral course, should I take from this instructor or that instructor? And I said, you should take as many as you can. It’s not a matter of you have to take diplomates in all these different areas, you need to just get the information and then figure out, okay, what really fuels your fire and then dive into that deeper and do your own research and do your own education. And because when we know better, we do better. And that allows us to just serve at a much higher level.

So that brings me to the next point here that, you know, you’ve come up with your own pediatric intraoral palate specific technique. That’s a mouthful to say, right? So, tell us [inaudible 00:07:59]. Well, that’s easy enough. So tell us more about that because I’ve been in practice 24 years. I do adjust kids, I have done a little bit and I have to say when we are out of school, it’s like, oh my goodness, this little infant and so forth. So I mean, it was good to take courses but I know that you dig a lot deeper into specific issues. So I’m assuming this is you realizing from all of those different techniques coming up with something that would work for a specific condition, right?

Absolutely. So, it came to light when I actually, I’ve been seeing more and more infants, and I will say pediatrics, but for myself, my pediatrics are really two and under, is a lot of my pediatrics. And a lot of my babies that I’m seeing are the only or the first chiropractic patient of the family. So, when that started happening, that switched the language I had to use the communication, and then I also was looking at why is that happening.

The technique and the reason we came up with the pediatric intraoral palate specific technique or PIPS technique is it was just trying to come up with, okay, what are we working on? And I do a lot of work and have created strong relationships in our community with many pediatric dentists and some of the lactation consultants and even the Jack Newman Clinic in Toronto who refer a great deal of babies towards me who have suffered with tongue tie issues. Dural tension.

And so, I don’t like to just qualify it as tongue tie because there are tongue ties, if you look at them, they’re quite severe but they might be functional. It’s how much tension is there in the jaw, how much dural tension is there in this baby. What else is going on, which also will interfere with improving their latch even if they choose to get the tongue tie released.

And one of the big things was all the sphenoid work. And I was exposed to a lot of that years ago in Australia initially. But then looking at some of the craniosacral work that I’ve done, but what I’ve recognized was people talk about, okay, check the palate but they’re not relaying it back to how is that impacting the suck reflex. They’re not relaying it back to retained primitive reflexes which we are having or creating when we don’t have all of these developmental stages that we’re hitting as an infant. No one’s talking about infant TMJD. And for my US docs who for different coding, that is something a lot of insurance companies won’t necessarily allow you to say, well, sphenoid fault, that’s not a code, but TMJD is. And it is truly for a lot of these babies latch issues is infant TMJD.

The beautiful thing about the sphenoid which is the palate specific technique, the core of it, is the sphenoid has attachments to every part of the skull, the jaw and the top two vertebra of your neck. And so, when we’re working on that or checking the suck reflex, we’re looking at how the jaw’s moving, we’re helping impact reshaping the cranium, and we’re looking at what’s happening in their upper cervicals, and with the suck reflex, also we’re creating pumping of the CSF. So there’s so many things that are happening together that I now, not just with my babies but with many of my kids, my toddlers, and even some adults who suffer from migraines, doing some of this intraoral work actually has had massive change for them.

That is great. So, you know, I’m listening to you and I’m thinking, oh my goodness, I don’t know all of that stuff. So where should one start? I mean, like I said, I’ve done, I love education as well and I’ve done craniosacral work, I’ve done Dr. Turner’s work on cranium and it was such a powerful experience to even have it done. And I think that’s the other thing too, it’s kind of cool for us chiropractor to get adjusted by other practitioners and see how different a different technique is.

But going back to the kids in the evaluation, you do as gave training and seminars, right? So you do-

I do. Yeah. So I created an advanced pediatric boot camp and that’s a two and a half day training seminar. And so, it’s not just with the intraoral work, but we do a lot of training also on retained primitive reflexes because that is something that no one looks for as far as any profession. We look for if it’s there when they’re newborns, but no one checks if it’s been retained. And that also can be linked to so many things as far as behavioral challenges, bed wetting, toe walking, anxiety, even into adulthood. So, looking for those will also set you apart.

And so, I do a lot of hands on training and it’s so fun because so many of the docs actually will find, they’re like, I have a retained grasp reflex and they’re like what do I do, what do I do? So it’s actually pretty neat to find out what we also have. You can be very high functioning and still have some retained, but is that allowing us to function at our highest potential? No. So let’s look at these things.

I also cover all the neurology that goes on. We talk about exams, we talk a lot about communication, report of findings and then we also talk about marketing and how you become the referral source for your community. The biggest thing I emphasize in these courses is [inaudible 00:13:43] management. And so many of us either feel like we’re on an island or choose to be on an island. But if you are going to start working with more pediatrics, you have to be ready and willing and open to co-manage these babies and children with other practitioners. That is really the key because it takes a village.

And so, the training program I created was as a practicing chiropractor, okay, what would I want to know, so when I go into my office on Monday, I’m able to do some of these things. So a lot less theory, a lot of hands on, and then you will actually be fully certified. In the PIPS technique, at the end of it, we talk about diagnosing tongue tie, how do you recognize it? We play in each other’s mouths with gloves. And we try and make it as educational and fun as possible because really this should be fun. And it’s not, I have docs who have seen pediatrics for a long time coming. I have students coming, I have docs who have been in practice years and years and they don’t really see a lot of kids, but they’d like to.

And so, everyone can take pieces from it and whatever level you choose to use it in your practice, it’s going to be beneficial across the board.

Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s that we’re serving a lot of kids or not. I know hearing your talk, I’m thinking, wow, I could probably do even better serving the kids that I have if I know what I’m looking for because let’s face it, depending on our schooling and if we focus on it, we didn’t get that much. So, you said a co-managing with other practitioners. Being in your community, do you find that other practitioners are receptive, especially more the traditional rounds? You’ve had good reception?

Very good.


Very good because I can speak their language. So, we oftentimes as chiropractors are not referred to as chiropractors by other professionals when it comes to dural tension, tether tissue or tongue tie. We are referred to as body workers. And there’s body workers or chiropractors, it could be an osteopath in Canada, which is different than a DO in the states. It could be some massage therapist, craniosacral therapist. So there’s multiple people that might fall into that category. Body workers is a trusted term. Chiropractors is sometimes a scary term if people are unaware.

So I’ve had great, and I call myself a chiropractor, so don’t, on my card, it doesn’t say body worker. But when you explain I’m a chiropractor, so we do body work and this is how we do it. Just little changes in language allow people to go, oh, because they picture we’re going to adjust a newborn like we adjust a giant linebacker. I always say, it’s not that that would hurt the baby, it’s just actually wouldn’t work. I’ve had great response, I have huge number of referrals from pediatricians, from dentists, from lactation consultants, from family GP. So the whole gamut. They are looking for someone to refer these children to. They are looking for help for these families. And you have to be ready to co-manage and work with them to help these families because these families need help.

And the other thing working with this special population is you also have to make yourself available. A mom who is having challenges breastfeeding her baby, a newborn, can’t wait three weeks to come in and see you. So we have chunks of appointments that are specifically left open, so eats into my time, but I choose to allow that to happen for these babies to be able to be seen fairly quickly.

Well that’s great.

Yeah, and that’s something that chiropractors typically will do. A lot of the osteopaths don’t. So, that’s another piece that you just have to be ready to serve and to love them up and then it all works well.

Well that’s awesome. So, you’re in full time practice, you’re teaching [inaudible 00:18:03] seminar and that’s one thing that I like to ask older women because, you know, how old are your kids now? 14 and …

14 and 16 now.

16. And they’re both in sports like crazy I think.

Yeah, they are.

So they’re keeping you busy. So from a life balance kind of thing and I kind of don’t like to use that word balance because to me, a balance on a scale is [inaudible 00:18:23], it’s things are not moving. So, to me it’s just, I don’t really like using that word. But, how do you feel like you can do the family business aspect of your seminars and so forth and also the practice? How long have you been in practice?

16 years.

16 years. So if there’s people that are listening and they’re new in practice or just old, you know, have been longer in practice, how would you say that you’ve incorporated all of that to have a good life and design your life the way you want it?

Well, I’m not going to lie, I haven’t always done a good job. I’ve always tried but it’s, there’s different challenges at different stages. So, when my babies were little, and I’ve always been a working mom, we’ll call it that. And that works for us and that works for my family and that’s my choice.

I think the first thing I had to do to actually achieve balance was to acknowledge that there was nothing wrong with that. There’s a lot of us that have our own internal guilt of if we, let’s say we’re practicing chiropractors, we have babies and we choose to stay home with our babies, we feel a sense of guilt of whoa, but we’re not serving as a chiropractor anymore. And then there’s other people that have babies and choose to go back into full time practice and then they say, whoa, am I less of a mom because I’m choosing to practice as well. You have to all just own the fact that you are going to do what’s right for you in the moment that you’re in and that is okay.

But what I’ve learned over time and what I’ve always really tried to focus on is being present where I’m at. So, when I was able to release some of that and kind of go, okay, I am doing and loving what I am doing in practice and I’m 100% present for my practice members when I’m there with them, that’s awesome. And then I’m coming home and I will put away my phone and I’ll designate a certain amount of time, specifically I am 100% focused with my children, and that is awesome. And that fills all my buckets but also fills all of theirs.

I’m by nature an entrepreneur and when there’s not something out that I can find that I want, I make it. So, my brain does function faster than maybe some other people and that, so, if I were to not fill that piece, I also would not feel fulfilled and I would probably drive everyone crazy. So, what I’ve, I’ve learned I have to be ready to say no and that’s okay. I get asked to speak a lot. Sometimes it just doesn’t fit into my life so I have to now sometimes say no and realize that other opportunities will present themselves. The universe presents you with many opportunities to choose different pathways and you have to be okay, same, not this time, this is what’s going to be my priority now.

So, balance, I like to look at it from a week by week. And balance for me, I don’t love the word balance either because I don’t actually think it’s true because we’re in constant motion.

Movement, yeah.

But I love to try and just focus that I am giving my all in the moment I’m in and then I move onto the next moment and I’ll give it my all in that moment. And then, sometimes at the end of the week or at the end of the day I’ll really look at, okay, you know what, I recognize, I probably focused a little bit too much on this side today and not on this. So I’m going to start tomorrow fresh and I’m going to do it again. And I’ve had very open dialogue with my kids and they are allowed to tell me if they feel they need my time or they need anything from me and they know they are my top priority, but that I’m also a full time working mom and that is also really important and they’re really proud of me for that. And I’ve also given permission to my team to let me know if I’m not giving what I should there. And if I seem distracted, they’ll pull me aside and they’ll say, okay, you need a moment [inaudible 00:22:57]

Go sit in the corner.

Yeah, pretty much. They put me in the corner and they say, clear your head. Because we all have sometimes things going on that it might be really serious in our personal lives. And we try really hard not to bring it in. Your team knows you so give them the authority and the permission to call us out on it because we call them out. Creating those checks and balances has allowed me two do the best I possibly can and I think it’s going really well.

Good. Good, good, good. So thank you so much Jenna for this wisdom, this information, and I think inspiring us to get even more educated so we can serve our kids and that population. Because I mean, you know, in closing, which conditions do you see the most of and you feel that if you didn’t increase your knowledge that you would not serve the kids as well. So, you’ve mentioned a few but cranial stuff, colics. What else do you see?

Because of all the work I do and because I’m become quite known for dealing with tongue tie and latch issues, I’m seeing a lot more babies who are having trouble breastfeeding and latch. And we might think that’s not a big deal, but if they’re not sucking properly, they’re not actually creating the neurology we need them to. If they’re having tension in their jaw, it’s actually creating dural tension that could lead to loss of cervical curve or no cervical curve forming.

So, for me, that piece and really looking at either the retained reflexes and actually truly understanding the suck and how important that is has made massive change and is so important for us to do and it’s something that’s just not talked about. So we all are really good, instead of just learning different pieces, try and always close the circle and link it back to okay, what will this do if a child can’t do this, what will this do if a child can do that? Because if they’re hungry, they’re colicky. If they’re in discomfort, they’re colicky. If there’s dural tension, they’re colicky. If there’s subluxations, they’re colicky. So we have to look at why.

Yeah, as chiropractor, we always look for the cause. But I guess what we’re saying here is we should even dig deeper when it comes to our kids. So Jenna, if people want to find out more about your course or courses, I should say, how can they find you, what’s your website?


And I have to ask, how did you come up with that name?

You know what, it came to me just because I actually have a large fertility practice as well. And so, that was creating your own baby boom. And so, creating baby boom from that side. And then also with the pediatrics because once you have this knowledge, they’re just going to come. They’re going to flock, and so that, having this knowledge and having this certainty with this understanding, you will create a baby boom to whatever level you’d like it to be.

I was just going to say, right, if the intent is there and the passion is there and the will to learn more. So, thank you so much Jenna for your wisdom. I’m actually excited that I really want to take your course because, like I said, I’ve been touching babies for 24 years and if I can do more and serve them more, sign me up for that.

Okay, sounds good. I look forward to it. Well, I mean, who doesn’t love those little squishy [inaudible 00:26:52]

And I personally love when, you know, I’ve got semi-private rooms and stuff, but I love walking around with the babies and having conversation, oh you’re just babies and so forth. I always say, this is not work, this is just pure pleasure to be able to take care of those kids. So thank you so much.

Thank you.

This was Dr. Nathalie Beauchamp for Empowering Women in Chiropractic and hopefully we all got inspired and empowered today and thanks again to ChiroSecure to put together this awesome show where we are empowering women in chiropractic to be even greater than they already are. Thank you so much.

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Empowering Women Chiropractic – Prevailing theories in autism

Now here’s today’s host, Dr Monica Buerger.

Hello everybody, and welcome to another ChiroSecure [crosstalk 00:01:00]

Now here’s today’s host, Dr. Monica Buerger.

I’m your host doctor Monica Buerger and I am beyond ecstatic today to have one of the ultimate ultimates in our profession hanging out together. I don’t even know where to start with this introduction and I’d been chomping at the bit for months on this. So Dr. Monique Andrews, also known as the infamous Dr. Mo is here with us today. Thank you so much. I know you’ve got a crazy schedule, but thanks for taking the time to hang out. I truly appreciate it.

I’m excited to be here with you today, Monica. I’m a big fan, so that’s real for me.

It’s a Mo in a Mo show. So a little bit about doctor Mo. She has an incredible record for our profession. I was so impressed reading part of your bio, and upon graduation from Palmer West, she was a recipient of the Presidents Citation of Service Award to The Chiropractic Profession. And for those of you that don’t understand, this is a lifetime achievement award that Doctor Mo was honored with upon graduation from Chiropractic College. That is phenomenal. Thank you for what, the service you’ve done that or that you earned that. That’s, that’s amazing. Doctor Mo is a chiropractor and has a master’s in neuroscience. She’s currently the chair of clinical sciences?

Basic sciences

Basic Science at Life West. She’s had two, three prestigious awards offered to her from Life West. One was in 2015 as the instructor of the year and in 2017 … 16 and 17 as administrator of the year. She has done research in neuroimmunology and behavioral, neurobiology of behavior.

The list goes on and on. She is in the last couple of years really dedicated to neural development disorders and that’s what we’re going to geek out about today. She’s on the circuit lecturing at many amazing events. One of them is autism, one that’s coming up next weekend, I believe, and one of them … Yeah, and one of them is something that’s near and dear to my heart. The kids summit. This year, it’s going to be in Sydney in September. And I’ve been privileged to be on that circuit, three out of their four events. And for me, this is something so spectacular because it is basically a fundraiser. All proceeds go to chiropractic research. So she’s going to be there in September and at New Zealand Chiropractic College for their lyceum, and the list goes on and on. But the world is blessed to have you and I’m blessed to have you on the show. So welcome.

Thank you so much from some police to be here with you today.

So let’s do this. Is there anything I need to add to that, your what you’ve accomplished in this world so far?

No, The only a addition I would make is that I went to Palmer Davenport, not Palmer West. You know we kind of get [inaudible 00:04:24] about those things. So just a Palmer Davenport.

I’m sorry.

Yeah, no, I think actions speak louder than words. So maybe we can just talk about some fun and cool things in neural development.

Absolutely. So in your experience, what are some of the roadblocks that you feel are causing some hampers and on in our kiddos with neurodevelopmental struggles?

Yeah. So we can borrow right from our chiropractic philosophy when this comes, and we think about, we go all the way back to like the three T’s. So any experience that a child has, whether it’s a physical trauma that could be internal toxins, externals toxins, maternal stress, this creates discord in neural development, right?


I’m not someone who really buys into the disease model. I think that something like autism is a biological process and it is a process that maybe starts because there’s some sort of insult that the fragile new brain can’t accommodate too. And what is the definition of health but our ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. And then it’s just a matter of how do those cells respond to that? What are the antecedents and triggers that create an unsatisfactory environment for development?

And I’m totally in with you on that whole game. And I’ve lately added another T, technology. We know that that is … it’s changing neural development and brain development. So that’s just another T that we have to add to the load of …

And we have no idea what’s happening with technology yet. I think we won’t for a long time. I was reading some information the other day about what happens with the dopaminergic reward systems with technology and things like social media and that’s pretty scary actually.

It’s very scary. And we know that the dopamine factor is going to deal so much with their frontal lobe. When these individuals, kiddos go into what we call the frontal lobe flip, then you’re stuck in that limbic drive and we see a whole neural cascade, neurophysiological cascade right there. So I’m with you on that.

In your research and reading, I know you like to nerd out a lot like I do and the many others that are on the forefront of this work. What have you seen, read, heard, in regards to any specific brain regions? I think, personally, I know we used to get into certain specific brain regions, but it’s such a complex, I mean they all have to talk to each other, what’s your take on that?

Yeah. I think, you know, if we go all the way back to, as the brain starts to develop and how it develops, it goes through a series of stages, right? From neurogenesis, migration, maturation, differentiation, etc. Two of these processes are significantly disrupted, it appears, when the brain becomes really inflamed. And I think probably the prevailing theory in autism right now is that what happens with the developmental dysfunction is a response to inflammation in the brain.

And so if I can just briefly summarize for our viewers, what we think is happening is that when there’s some sort of insult, whether that be a physical insult, an emotional insult, a toxic insult, as we’ve been saying, technological insult, what happens is neurons get really excited. And when neurons get really excited, they produce a lot of the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate and not enough of the inhibitory neurotransmitter, which is GABA, and those are the two main excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters in the brain.

And what happens when that happens is that microglia get overwhelmed and they can’t do their job. Now two really important things that glial cells do, one is migration. And what we see with autistic kids is a massive problem with migration, right? So when neurons are born, they don’t just magically show up in the areas they’re supposed to, they have to migrate. And this is propagated via a radial glial cells. So what we see with autism is that cells don’t migrate properly. And we have areas that are close together that there’s a lot of agitation, but they don’t get too distant areas. And if we have time today, we can talk a little about polyvagal theory in how the [crosstalk 00:08:56] to the reward center.

So that’s one problem is migration. And that they do see that in the brains of autistics, that migration is a massive problem. And the other stage of development that gets severely disrupted with autistics is a synaptic pruning and apoptosis. So in actuality, we’re born with way many more … Or our brain develops originally with way many more neurons than we ultimately end up keeping. And somewhere between 40 to 75 get actually killed off as a normal process. In autistics, it looks like that’s not happening. And sometimes you see that’s why their brains are actually bigger. It goes to show that size doesn’t matter, right, because they have massive dysfunction.

Exactly. And those microglia, what’s so interesting is the microglia are responsible as part of our immune cells of the CNS and responsible for the pruning. So those microglia are extremely important in this concept.

Yeah. The microglia, those are the stars of the show right now. And microglia sort of act like … They’re probably the primary immune cell in the brain. It’s funny because until a year ago we pretended like the brain didn’t have any immune system, but they work a lot like macrophages. And so their job is to scavenge and take cells away. And when they’re under-functioning, then we just get an overproduction of neurons that are disconnected. WEll that creates a very disconnected individual, right?

Absolutely. Have you seen the one study where they looked the microglia in the cerebellum with autistic kids?

Well, I’m not sure which study you’re talking about, but the two areas that they’ve been mainly focused on where they see the mass of disruption, are cerebral cortex and cerebellum. And that’s where most of the work that I’ve seen.

Go ahead. Sorry for that interruption. But it’s fascinating to see. I did this lecture for some docs I mentor yesterday, but talked basically about everything that you’re talking about, but we look at the cerebellum putting the brakes on the frontal cortex. If both of those are skewed and the purkinje fibers in the cerebellum are responsible for the GABA production.


And so we know some things that specifically target those purkinje fibers, like gluten and aluminum. So this lends itself to exactly the lecture that I had just the other day.

Yeah. Like you can’t quiet the brain, right?


And so when we have so much of this glutamate, it’s really, it’s like there’s a storm that’s happening and then what happens is we’re not able to connect those regions that are supposed to be connected. And so this migratory problem that shows up, originally, they believed that migration stopped at birth. And now what they know is that migration actually continues for about two years. So it’s that time that’s so critical, right? For there to not be any toxicological insult, as little traumas possible, and we know that there are external factors that often get injected or otherwise that can create dysfunction in the developing brain.

Absolutely. So on that note, is there a little pearl that you give to your students? I know your students absolutely adore you and you’re like the go-to for many things, especially at Life West, a pearl that you would give them for those first couple of years of life to look at, to a red flag. Anything for docs out there that are working in the peds population?

Yeah, I think it’s really important, actually, to get adequate training. And to not shy away from working with really challenged kids, but also to know what your limitations are. And there’s some people out there running great programs and to learn, maybe get certified through different programs and make sure that if you’re gonna work with challenged populations that you’ve done the training to be able to do that. And I’m a big proponent of Chiropractic, but it’s also not the only thing these kids need.

Yeah. Cause there’s so many things we do have to consider these days. And that’s great advice because we’re seeing, those of us in the trenches and in practice, we’re seeing those little fiddle parts come in at a much a higher level of toxicity with a lot more neurodevelopmental challenges. I think being able to pick out some of those red flags and saying, “Okay, is that within my [inaudible 00:13:33] that I feel comfortable working with or do I need to work with somebody else?” So thank you for that. Because I think that’s really part of my mission, is educating people to feel comfortable, or it’s okay if you don’t. But to recognize that and work with somebody that does feel comfortable to follow up on what might be going on.

Yeah. And to create great interprofessional networks. When you look at the detox problem that we have a lot of with a lot of autistic kids. I mean a lot of this is regulated … it’s not like if something … we’re not going to get into a conversation with about vaccines obviously, but if vaccines caused autism, than every kid that had it would have autism. And there are many other triggers and antecedents that go together that, you know, create that confluence of neurodevelopmental dysfunction. And so, you know, what are the other issues that are involved there? And detox, a diminished detox capacity is massive in these kids.

It’s huge. With your background in basically the neurobiology of emotion, of fear, because I love this area and I like looking at pre- preconception care, because the health of the mom and dad, the parents, is so critical, especially the health of the mom prior to pregnancy and especially during pregnancy. Do you have a pearl of wisdom there in regards to … I’m just shooting this out your way, but I want to pick your brain.

Yeah. And so I think that the most critical thing we can arm people with his knowledge. And we now have research looking at the impact of maternal stress on fetal neurological development. So you look at something, I read a study a while ago that they did FMRI in utero, and looking at neonatal migration patterns, and that moms that have high level of stress actually show, they’re like three to four times as likely to birth autistic, ultimately autistic children, which is incredible.

And so you can see very early on the impact. There’s a Canadian psychiatrist that I love reading his name, his [Gavermate, 00:15:44], and he talks about how in psychiatry they talk about mental illness and mental disease and he’s like, it’s not really a disease, it ends up becoming a biological fact of life for these kids. But it starts predominantly from stress and emotional trauma that happens to children. That can happen in the womb that can happen postnatal, also. But if you have a very stressed out mom or dad or that’s the environment, even like you said, preconception, it’s gonna have an incredible impact on what’s happening in those people’s brains and those people’s bodies. And yeah, we can’t negate the impact of maternal and paternal biology on ultimate neural development.

You do a lot with mindfulness and chiropractic. So give me your take on that as far as some tips that maybe you can give patients. Because I think it’s really important that we try to help moms, especially during pregnancy, be as mindful as possible, to bring that stress load down. What do you got there?

So here’s the deal, and that is, we believe what we think. This is a fatal error. Maybe not fatal, but it leads to a lot of suffering. And thoughts, we have this running narrative that’s happening in our brain all the time. And I think probably the most critical thing that we can teach people is you can … Believing what you think is optional, and if you can train people to be mindful, and there’s programs now, I’m actually working on developing a program of mindfulness that people can do to create a more mindful life. But if you can allow people the opportunity to understand that feelings that they have, these are things that we can attend to or not and that we can change our relationship with them just by being aware of it. But that takes focused, intense practice.

It’s something, though, that we can do with as little as 10 minutes a day and really is a shift. I think like anything, if you make recommendations to patients, and this is good for any doctor or student, we have to make it accessible. So give them some tools. If you’re going to say, “Go meditate every day.” Well that’s great. That sounds like a really hard thing for most people to do. They think that means they have to sit in the corner and try and levitate, not thinking about anything. That’s not what meditation is. But Insight Timer is a great app, a free app that’s out there that has guided meditations, and just, you know, give them a basic guidelines. Start with five to 10 minutes a day, and then just be mindful of things that come and go. And I’m just really focused on the fact or the idea that we’re not tied to our thoughts. We don’t have to believe them. So you can really cherry pick. This is a happy thought. This makes me feel good. I’m going to take that. This is not good and I’m just going to leave that because I don’t have to buy into it.

Absolutely. That was beautiful, by the way. Beautiful. And I love the way you said our thoughts can be optional. That’s a good one. That we have that choice and that it’s optional. Beautiful, beautiful.

What’s cool about meditation, and this is, I talk about this when because I do a whole consciousness and chiropractic talk, is those same areas that they have now shown that are activated with meditation are the same ones that we’re showing impact with chiropractic.


Are we changing consciousness with chiropractic? Sure. Why not?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that leads us to the prefrontal cortex. And what we do see, what the research is validating for us, is that we have an effect on that prefrontal cortex. And we’ve got a few out there, too, in regards to the cerebellum and I like to call it the three ring circus, the cerebellum, the frontal lobe and the limbic system. I love the three brains and they all, they all do tie together, especially in the paradigm with our neural development. Our sensory kiddos are, our autistic Kiddos. So give me your go on that one.

Yeah, I think that with Chiropractic, we are impacting the prefrontal cortex. We can do something like, I like to call it the amygdala hijack, where … Because really the amygdala creates that emotional awareness, emotional response. Then if we can use our thoughts to actually dampen that out, right? So if we are upregulating the prefrontal cortex with chiropractic adjustment and meditation and those other things, then we can, again, mindfully suppress what’s happening with the amygdala, if we’re trained to do so. But what does that look like in the neuro developmentally challenged brain? So Stephen Porges, if we just can to take a couple of minutes to talk about polyvagal theory, the polyvagal theory book, which is a very dense volume to try and read. But if you can get through it, there’s some great pearls in there. There’s a whole chapter on autism.

And so he developed this idea that the autonomic nervous system is not just sympathetic comparison with that, but there’s a third branch, which is the social engagement system. And the social engagement system, this part of the vagous nerve enervates face, eyes, ears, heart and lungs, right? And so he says it’s hierarchical and that we actually start with social engagement. But we know that you know autistic kids, for example, that they have problems with flat affect, with sensitivity to sound, with not wanting to make eye contact, and the idea there is that maybe they have really low vagal tone and that they can’t get that social engagement system up and firing to the level that most of the rest of us do. And it’s why that we don’t want … We don’t even want to try to engage using our social engagement system with these kids, because we need to try and meet them where they’re at. Exactly. They had their social engagement system is not functioning so we can’t try and approach them that way.

Right, right. And I always say, I like to say a person’s behavior, especially a child’s behavior, that outward behavior, is essentially a window into their neurological integrity. What are they telling you by the way they express themselves? And so that when that frontal lobe is offlined, they can’t do that social engagement. They are in what I call limbic lock and load mode and they’re hightailing it for the hills. So on that note, working with the students at college, what are some pearls you give them in regards to chiropractic and getting these different areas of the brain online?

Yes. So number one, highlight the research. I mean the [inaudible 00:22:36] research is incredible and all the time they’re always like, “What’s the latest stuff?” And we actually have a chiropractic science working group I work with a group of students every week and we talk about the latest research. And the other thing is that you have to know your anatomy and physiology. So for example, we’re just talking about polyvagal theory and there’ve been a lot of studies. They’ve been using vagal stimulation in the medical community for about 20 years, right?


To treat things like depression, intractable epilepsy, with quite a lot of success. These to do that very invasively, like they actually implanted and vagal stimulator. Well now they do transcutaneous stimulation, [inaudible 00:23:14], also here. So in teaching them the anatomy and physiology, if you actually look at the course of where the vagous nerve runs, it leaves that juggler foramen inside the carotid sheath.

So now we have chiropractic studies that show that if you put pressure on the carotid sheath, you actually disrupt internal jugular blood flow. Now, well if the vagous nerve is in there, too, isn’t it possible that with subluxation, you’re interrupting vagal nerve, right? So if you look at the core, so it goes through that carotid sheath, but if you pull up, you know, Gray’s Anatomy and look at where is the vegous nerve, it literally runs right in front of the TP of atlas. Or if were subluxated, is it going to impact function? Do we have that data clearly elucidated yet? No. Can we make some extrapolations? Yeah. I’m the queen of extrapolation. I’m making that extrapolation. If you’re subluxated, you’re probably interrupting vagal tone. And iv vagal tone is disrupted, this leads to some of the symptoms that we see in autistics.

Absolutely, absolutely. And that heart rate variability is one of the measures we use in our profession. And we know that that really develops that in the second trimester, third trimester in utero. And without having good vagal tone, we’re going to be brought into this world already compromised. So even pregnancy care is, in my book, is extremely important.

Oh, absolutely. I don’t know why [inaudible 00:24:45] David Fletcher and Amy Hoss are doing amazing work with heart rate variability, but that also has been some … There’s thousands of articles and the medical community has already accepted heart rate variability. We should be jumping full … I mean there should be HRV in every chiropractic office. This is our way to show the impact that we’re having on autonomic nervous system. It’s way sexier conversation then okay, your back pain is getting better. For sure.

Yeah. You’re speaking my … Because what we really need to do is I think we need to be on the forefront of this whole wellness paradigm. We have … I’m preaching to the choir, I know, but to those of you out there listening, we have, we have the clinical findings. We see this in our offices every day. But let’s put the pieces together. Bring the research from other paradigms, connect the dots like you do, like I do, like others do, and start talking in that matter to the public and raising the awareness of exactly what we do. Brain-based chiropractic, essentially.

Yes, and for me that’s redundant, right? Because that’s the story I love to tell and it’s the story that I tell students to focus on. I teach a number of different classes here on campus, but one of them is patient education, which is the class in communication. I said, “Look, if you, if we really are doctors of the nervous system, then focus there.” We now know through some incredible research that when you adjust somebody, you’re impacting brain function. Well, what controls the body? What controls every cell, organ and tissue? Your brain. And you ask anybody that and almost anybody will know it. And now we know that when you adjust somebody, you’re impacting the brain. So let, let’s focus there. And maybe less on the back and neck pain and more on optimizing this vast richness that we call life.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s what we need. That’s why you’re being spread so thin because you’re amazing at the way you do articulate this and the way you communicate it, but really everybody needs to hear your message and the way you communicate it. So last minute pearl or two that you want to throw out to the world? I know there’s a lot.

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of tendency in chiropractic to try and want to run in a lot of different directions. I think there’s different roles for lots of us and I think one of the most important things that we can do is find out what’s our individual truth, what’s our authentic truth as a practitioner, as a chiropractor, as a clinician, and follow that. There’s this great quote that, of course, the exact quotes escaping my mind right now, but the idea that a flower doesn’t look to the flowers next to it to bloom, it just blooms perfectly by itself. And I think if practitioners could just start on this journey with the idea that you don’t graduate from chiropractic school as a master. And in fact this is a process that you continue throughout life and that we need to continue to learn and grow and find mentors and do everything we can to offer this, I think, sacred service that we have as chiropractors. That it can do so much and to not limit it to musculoskeletal complaints.

Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. Can you tell us a little bit, you and your partner and you’re good friend. The names I can’t get, but you guys are starting a retreat?

Retreat in Costa Rica. So my wife, Dr. Tamir [Macintire 00:28:12] and doctor Lauren Koedyk from Nikau chiropractic. She’s done a number of retreats and so we’re doing a collaboration with her to do a women’s only, sort of empowerment retreat coming up in Costa Rica in June. And the idea is really to lift women up.

The idea that greatness comes from service and that the greatest gift that you can give is the gift of service. And if we can find a way to lift women up and to just provide an opportunity for them to learn things like meditation, to learn different things, different tools that they can use to apply to become stronger in their own power. That’s the purpose of the retreat. And this is something that Dr. Lauren Koedyk does. She does women’s adjusting seminars. And really, that’s one piece of what she does, but something else she does is really gives the women this gift of personal empowerment. And that’s really the focus of our retreat.

And this is open to chiropractors?

Open to chiropractors.

Okay. And they can find information about this where?

If they go to nikauchiropractic.com/retreats.

Yeah. And your website is drmoniqueandrews.com?


And they can also find you through Life West? Or that website’s the best place for them to get ahold of you?

Yeah, my website, which is drmoniqueandrews.com, is the easiest way to get in touch with me.

Awesome. And if people want to hear you speak, they can contact you through that website as well?

Yeah. All my events are listed on there. Yeah.

Awesome. Awesome. Well good. I know you, we could be here for hours, but I appreciate you taking the time. I know you had to rearrange your schedule for this, but it was so well worth it. And the knowledge you have to share and, and you know what? The heart you have to share. It’s amazing when you combine knowledge with heart and what can happen.

I taught that class the other day and like I got back last week from somewhere with a group of amazing doctors and, and I saw this quote and I think this is so pertinent and it reminds me of you, actually. Singly, we can make a difference, but together we can make change. And I just had to throw that in now because you’ve got that heart and you’ve got that wanting to make the change and that’s very unique.

Ah, thanks so much Monica.

Thanks for hanging out. Well we’ll have to do this again. How about about apart two sometime?


It sound like a deal?

Sounds great.

Awesome. And for all of you out there, thanks for joining in. The first Thursday of June, we have a special guest, Dr. Eric [inaudible 00:31:05], I think. I hope we got that name right. And next Thursday, Dr. Nicole Lindsey has an amazing show empowering women. So make sure you join in. And I want to thank ChiroSecure for everything they have put forth for us to bring these special shows, to bring you the information, bring you cutting-edge things. Monique Andrews is on the leading edge in our profession, and to have her and other guests like her available to you, the public, is really something unique and I want to thank ChiroSecure for that. So until next month, I’m signing out and you guys go keep changing lives and changing the future.

Today’s pediatrics show, Look to the Children, was brought to your by ChiroSecure and the winning book series I am a Loveable Me. Make sure you join us next week right here at the same time. See you next week!

Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel (https://www.youtube.com/c/Chirosecure) Follow us on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/chirosecure/), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chiropracticmalpracticeins/) Periscope (https://www.pscp.tv/ChiroSecure). If you have any questions about today’s show or want to know why ChiroSecure is still the fastest growing malpractice carrier for over 27 years, then call us at (866) 802-4476. or find out just how much you can save with ChiroSecure by visiting: https://www.chirosecure.com/quick-quotes/malpractice-quick-quote/.

Look To The Children Epigenetic Effects of Subluxations

Look, please look, look to the children, yeah. In their eyes are the answers we seek. Now here’s today’s host, Dr. Monica Buerger. And their heart, and their hearts lead the way.

Hello everybody and welcome to our February, Look to the Children show, courtesy of BMA Chiro Secure. I am your host Dr. Monica Buerger, and I’m presenting live to you from Paris. Actually Paris Hotel that is, in Las Vegas.

So I am going to share with you today a few pros I think that are really important for you to understand the magnitude of what A we’re dealing with in today’s world in regards to these little kiddos and the power of chiropractic. So thank you for joining me and let’s rock and roll.

I don’t have anybody talking back with me this time, so I’ve got to adapt here a little bit. So let’s talk about genes. Not the jeans you wear, our DNA. So genes are an expression and they’re an expression of life. Genes are regulated by epigenes and that’s been out now for the last decade and a half we’ve been talking about epigenes, or epigenetics. So the epigene is what sets on top of the gene, and essentially what is controlling our gene expression. And our epigenes are triggered or influenced by our life stressors.

So that is our external environment, those toxins and stresses coming from the outside world, and our internal environment as well. What we call endotoxins. So hopefully you can see my power point here, our epigenes are influenced by traumas, toxin spots and technology.

So let’s break those down a little bit. One thing that I have found is we really have to define stress for our patients. We throw that word around very easily and a lot of patients look at stress from the viewpoint as far as I’m stressed out because I have a test tomorrow. I’m stressed out because I got in an argument with my husband, I’m stressed out because of work, etc. They’re looking at stress from that aspect.

For us as chiropractors we’re looking at stress from global standpoint. So we learn, most of us do, in our school. [inaudible 00:03:40] trauma, toxins, thoughts and I throw in technology these days, because technology is changing the way the brain is developing.

So furthermore we should break down trauma for our patients. We have physical trauma, which is micro trauma, or macro trauma. And for our [inaudible 00:04:01] that includes micro traumas in utero and certainly with the birthing process. And then there’s emotional trauma. We know now that our genes, or DNA is influenced by the pull down of generations before us. And their emotional status.

There’s a very popular study, it’s called the cherry blossom study, and what they did was exposed male rats to the smell of cherry blossoms and after they had that smell, they shocked them with electrical stimulation. This created an emotional response and it … A stress response, essentially putting them in a fight or flight mechanism. They allowed those male rats to breed, and they exposed the offspring to the smell of cherry blossoms as well. And those offspring, not with the electrical shock, just from the smell of the cherry blossoms, they had the same stress response as their fathers. And to further that, the next generation also had the same stress response.

So we know that our emotional responses are a way we interact with our world, from a physical and emotional standpoint, is going to influence generations to come. And influences is what we call our DNA methylation. This is essentially what runs our genes. So we need to find stress for our patients. We need to find toxins for our patients. We have what we call exotoxins from the outside world. Since World War II we’ve had an implosion in the United States of over 87,000 more chemicals put into the environment. And these chemicals have not been tested, for the most part, have been tested for safety individually, let alone combined as a combined total load. And we’re seeing studies come out now over the years, one of the first ones to come out was called the body burden study from an environmental working group and looked at the number of toxins in the local blood cord of the fetus.

So we know that there’s exotoxins and we know that there’s actually endotoxins coming from within our own bodies and a lot of this is because of a poor gut micro bio. And we’re off gassing bad bugs that are harbored in our gut and of course that can create a toxic environment, inflammatory gut lining, what we call a gut permeability, or gut dysbiosis and those toxins can then escape the gut lining. And one of the biggest places they’re going to go is the brain.

Our thoughts … I’m going to go over essentially how subluxations affect our DNA, our epigenetics. And I’m going to go over here shortly in regards to the fear monger. The amygdala. Once we are experienced in a … any kind of stressor it creates an emotional profile, pattern on our brain, an imprint. And it can create our thought patterns and these thoughts can be self limiting. We are also going to inherit the thoughts of others, especially our ancestors.

And then there’s technology. Technology we know is … It’s changing the way the brain is developing and it’s also influencing cognition in the older generation as well. So they’re seeing basically thinning of the cortex and areas of the brain similar to that as Alzheimer’s.

So let’s take a vote here on the next slide. So The Epigenetic Effects of Subluxation. What the heck am I talking about? We essentially have incoming traffic into the brain, by our senses. These … This is information coming from the outside world into our brain. We have smell, sound, visual stimulation, visual input, taste, and touch. Those are our five [bar 00:08:47] senses. They come from the outside world in.

All our sensations need to, see if I can get my arrow to work here. We’ll come in and hit the sensory portion of the thalamus, but there’s three near senses that come from within our body. And this is so profound to us as chiropractors. This is really where the [inaudible 00:09:12] hit the road. We have the vestibular system, that is our sense of balance. It sounds so simplistic, however the vestibular system is the mass regulator. It’s the CEO, it’s the air traffic controller of all eight sensory systems.

Allowing those eight sensory systems to talk to each other, it’s going to regulate the timing, the input, the impact, the volume of the sensory information coming into the brain.

Then we have [proprio 00:09:45] suction, [proprio 00:09:47] suction we talk a lot about it in the chiropractic world, because when we do an adjustment, we’re firing those mechanoreceptors and we’re [inaudible 00:09:56] proprioception into the brain, into the CNS. Proprioception is calming, it’s centering, it calms our nervous system down. It tells who we are, where we are in space. As does the vestibular system, it tells us where we are in space.

Proprioception will screen out other unwanted sensory input. So when we get too much overload, and too much input into the brain. Proprioception, provided it’s working well, will calm down the system and allow us to navigate the system without getting what I call too crazy brain.

So vestibular input is going to come from all spinal joints, very big, very pronounced in the upper cervical spine and of course the inner ear and cerebellum is going to cure a lot of the [stimulant 00:10:43] input.

Proprioception again, our entire spinal joints and our extremities. And then there’s what we call the [inaudible 00:10:53] input or interoception. This is sensory input from our viscera and organs. This is all bagel term. 80% of visceral input into the brain is via the vagus nerve and the majority of that is parasympathetic in nature.

So we have a barrage of sensory information coming from the outside and from the bottom up, and to the thalamus. Now the brilliant Heidi Haavik out there talks about the pre frontal cortex and how that frontal cortex can flip. So that’s a top down approach and we’re going to now cover it from a bottom up, outside, in approach.

When this input comes into the brain and its too dysregulated, it’s not making sense essentially, it’s distorted, it’s a barrage of information, it doesn’t hook up. It’s like doing a dot puzzle and you can’t connect the dots. So you can’t create the full picture in your mind of what it is you are supposed to respond to.

So there’s a sensory motor loop, when sensory input comes in we’re … We’re to decipher it, connect it together, it’s all that connectivity and talking to each other. This information is supposed to connect and make sense of how we respond with appropriate motor output. And when that loop happens well, we’re in an adaptable state. Wherein we can get into a rested, digest state. We can be calm in our environment, feel secure, we can be comfortable.

When that information comes in then, it comes in and hits the amygdala, which I call the fear monger. It creates an impression. The amygdala is our rate limiting factor in life. It will allow us to go forward if we’re not stuck in a fear mode, or it can freeze us. And we can get into what we call a freeze response, or a freeze dissociate response. If an incident is so traumatic to us that the brain says, “I don’t want to remember this.” This is … Let’s say a PTSD situation. PTSD is often because of a dysregulation of information coming into the brain and it’s so overwhelming, the brain doesn’t want to remember that traumatic experience.

So we don’t integrate that emotional response, that memory, but it stays lingering out there and it always keeps us on edge. So when we go and experience a similar situation, or even it perceived situation coming up, it doesn’t even have to be a true situation, we are going to fire up into the sensory thalamus and what I call [limbic 00:14:03], lock and load mode. When we get stuck in that [limbic 00:14:07] system, we get stuck in a sympathetic dominant state. We create that amygdala, it’s firing, it’s going to regulate our HPA access, and from that there’s going to be a plethora of neuro physiological responses in a negative way. Because you’re going to have stress on the cardio vascular system, on the [inaudible 00:14:30] system, your adrenal glands are cranking all the time and from there we get a host of neuro physiological responses, and mental responses.

If we’re stuck in a cortisol burst all the time, we’re … It’s going to appear … An anxiety state. These are the individuals that I … I hate this diagnosis, I refer to it as GAD, general anxiety disorder. Anxiety disorders are taking over especially in our teenage population group. And so often it’s because they are stuck in this sensory loop, and they’re stuck in limbic lock and load mode.

The amygdala is also going to regulate the ANS access, so our gas versus brake pedal mode. We’re going to be stuck in that gas pedal mode and our brake pedal can’t shut down. When that happens we cannot be in a rested, [digest 00:15:30] state. When that happens we get a chronic cortisol kick, cortisol is initially anti inflammatory, but over time it becomes pro inflammatory. Especially in the brain, and in the gut. We’ll talk about that in a minute.

So this loop that gets created, becomes a memory. Let’s say you have a tragic situation that happens, or a death in the family, it creates this visceral response. You may even have a true heart ache, your heart actually hurts. That is a visceral emotional response that sets us into the same loop. Maybe it is … You go through a divorce, that kiddo’s experience a divorce of the parents. This memory pattern is going to follow the same loop, so that might trigger an individual not to want get into relationships or bond with others, because they are too afraid of that emotional pain again.

So this is really the way we navigate life in general. This is the way by every decision we make it in life comes from a limbic … We make an emotional decision, from that limbic system, and that’s what drives us to make decisions. Now when we get stuck in limbic lock and load mode, we have the frontal lobe, the executive functioning part of our brain, he shuts down, checks out. Essentially the executive function part of the brain, our decision maker, our reason, or rational center, the way we make decisions, the way we can respond appropriately … He’s out to lunch, he’s not working anymore. So it’s like trying to reason with somebody in the middle of a heated argument, it’s not going to happen, right?

These are the kiddos that we try to parent them, discipline them, with the same techniques, and really their reasonable logic capacity, their impulse control is gone. So I tell teachers, principals, etc, it’s like what’s the definition of insanity, it’s doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. That’s what we’re doing with so many of these kiddos, we tell them, “No don’t do that.” Or “That’s not appropriate.” That frontal lobe is checked out, it’s gone, it’s offline. They’re living in this limbic lock and load mode.

So going from a top down approach, and trying to get them cognitively to respond is not necessarily going to be our best approach. Two approaches together, working from bottom up and outside, regulating that sensory input, along with behavioral cognitive therapies and those type of therapies and meeting in the middle, connecting these parts of the brain. Allowing these two parts of the brain to communicate, that’s where it’s at.

And this is where chiropractic is so imperative, because guess what? What do we have the ability to do? We have the ability to free up subluxations and neuro mechanical stressors on the spine, regulating the input into the brain. Into the CNS in regard to especially vestibular proprioception and neuro visceral interceptive input into the brain.

When we can regulate that input into the brain it’s no so chaotic, it’s not so overwhelming, it’s more organized when it comes into the brain and we can help to regulate that limbic system and that limbic drive. Bringing the frontal lobe back online, allowing for the brain to be connected and calm.

Now if that doesn’t happen, if we stay stuck in this limbic drive, we’re not in a rested, digest state. And what are we talking about all over now? We’re talking about the micro bio. If we’re not in a rested digest state, this picture graphic on the left shows what happens is the mucosal lining gets inflamed. It allows that barrier to become permeable. And now the bad juju. The endotoxins, because we’re not in a rested digest state, we’re eating and eating bad foods for the most part of the sad diet, the standard American diet.

The food sits like that, it putrefies, it off gases, the bad bacteria can escape the gut lining and where does it meander? It heads up to the brain, creating a neuro inflammatory response.

Two big guns in this whole ball game, are gluten and casein by the way, because each of those carry an opiod, a morphine peptide. Casein, morphine, gluteal morphine, those are extremely neuro inflammatory, they can escape the gut lining, hit the brain and cause a neuro inflammatory response. Along with a host of other bacterial, viral loads.

The key regulator of this is going to be the vagus nerve by the way. The vagus nerve, I’m not sure if you can see the graphic, but the vagus nerve is got to modulate your inflammatory response. I tell patients it’s the inflammatory shut off valve. It shuts your inflammation off. It does that by the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway. The vagus nerve also modulates our gastro intestinal function, I call it the big bad voodoo daddy.

So if we have poor sensory input via visceral afferents, [bagel 00:21:55] visceral afferents into the brain, we can’t modulate that inflammatory response.

What else do I going to tell you? I’m on very sleep right now by the way, I had quite the trip coming here to Vegas. So vagus nerve tones down, by the way, a lot of you out there may use agents probiotics. Our research also suggests that very key probiotics that will modulate the limbic load, the hypothalamus in the frontal lobe. There’s a couple key probiotics that we know of. One is lactobacillus rhamnosus and one is lactobacillus reuteri, they have an effect mood, anxiety and depression, however they will not have the same effect on the brain if [bagletone 00:22:49] is deficient.

So from a whole perspective, if we take the whole ball of wax, and look at the big picture, if we had chronic subluxation patterns, and normal afferent input to the CNS, which we have those studies with Heidi Haavik out of New Zealand, showing that the adjustments do affect processing of the prefrontal cortex. If we have an abnormal afferent information into the brain our sensory systems, all eight sensory systems are dysregulated, we get stuck in a limbic drive, we get stuck in a fight or flight situation, the HPA access shuts down, it shuts down our gut. And that’s essentially what we’re seeing across all ages and all stages.

So this information actually is pertinent from developing minds to diseased minds all across the board. When the other very cool information that we have is that a mans emotional response pattern, if she’s in this limbic drive during pregnancy it’s going to drive that same response with the offspring with the little [fiddle farts 00:24:17].

So what can happen is … There’s very key development of windows of opportunity, what I call them. There’s sensitive periods of time for neural development that a child should go through various motor milestones. And then there’s hardcore cut off periods of time that a child should go through different developmental milestones. And these developmental milestones are very much associated especially with development of that frontal cortex, and the visual processing system. If the visual processing system, that’s one of the biggest sensory systems we see associated with a neural psychiatric disorders. That’s a lot where the research is lying, we have the most research on.

If we do not master these developmental monumental milestones, these developmental windows of time can close and specific areas of the brain are offline so to speak. And those specific areas are what later on in their deficiency can lead to a neural psychiatric disorder. Especially in male teens and with diagnosis like schizophrenia, etc.

So if we have an infant that is subluxated, cannot get into these movement patterns and go through these developmental milestones, our primitive reflexes can be set and stayed to active. We have a hard time getting those integrated, our posture reflexes, higher more sophisticated parts of the brain, our sensor motor systems will be weakened and therefore we can’t build up to cognition and develop that prefrontal cortex.

So again, assessing children right from the get go, allowing them to get into these movement patterns, if they’re subluxation free, they’ll have proper sensory input, be able to reach those motor milestones, be able to move through these processes, integrate those primitive reflexes and build those higher more sophisticated parts of the central nervous system.

So hopefully that gives you some words of wisdom to chew on, and really hits home the huge effect we have on epigenetic regulation, a long term physical and mental health. If you see a study called the ACEs study, the Adverse Childhood Experiences study, it talks about trauma in the early years of life and they’re showing that this trauma sets into action exactly this pattern and those children are said to have about 20 year less life expectancy, because of the neural physiological consequences, especially in the cardio vascular system.

Okay, Allan I think I’ve finished my little tit bit here. Hopefully you enjoyed that, please sign in first Thursday in March for the amazing Tony Evil, he’ll drop some more knowledge bombs. Next week Nicole Lindsey another beautiful soul is going to do her show for chiropractic … Women in chiropractic, and I’ll be back next month with hopefully more sleep under my belt, and more amazing information to bring your way.

Again thank you Chiro Secure and thank you for all the docs out there working so hard to change lives and change the future.

Today’s pediatric show, Look to the Children was brought to you by Chiro Secure and the award winning book series ‘I Am a Lovable Me.’ Make sure you join us next week right here at the same time. See you next week.

Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel (https://www.youtube.com/c/Chirosecure) Follow us on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/chirosecure/), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chiropracticmalpracticeins/) Periscope (https://www.pscp.tv/ChiroSecure). If you have any questions about today’s show or want to know why ChiroSecure is still the fastest growing malpractice carrier for over 27 years, then call us at (866) 802-4476. or find out just how much you can save with ChiroSecure by visiting: https://www.chirosecure.com/quick-quotes/malpractice-quick-quote/.